interfaith minister

I spotted this sign at Findhorn and had to take a photo of it - for me it's a stage too far...yes even me!

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Technorati Tags: Ben Edson, Findhorn

Comments

[Jade]

Hi Ben,
Sorry if you thought my words were harsh and unloving. I do also minister in a very dark place and I will continue to work in those places, where maybe other Christians fear to tread. I was just concerned that some people may read the blog and be confused. Sorry I may of sounded condeming. I am really pleased to hear your feet are firmly in the Jesus camp. I do pray that God will continue to use you to bring light into dark places, and I hope you know that my concern was sincere.
Bless you and your family Jade

[Fat Roland]

This is absolutely beyond the pale: any fool knows 'as well' are two words and not one.

[Neil]

I am glad you think it is a stage too far - does this mean that you wouldn't attend or take part in such a service or that you would discourage eg anyone intending to take their child to such a thanksgiving service?

Neil

[Christy]

I'm curious - what is it that is "too far" about this from your perspective? I'm not trying to be critical. I just genuinely don't understand what's wrong with offering to do interfaith weddings or funerals, etc that reflect the beliefs of the people involved.

If a couple are both Christian and want a ceremony that specifically reflects that, then Angie is probably not the way to go. But why shouldn't an inter-faith couple have a ceremony designed to reflect that reality? If you got married in a traditional church service, didn't your wedding reflect you and your beliefs and your community?

One of my closest friends is an ordained minister, and very Jesus-y, and she does both interfaith weddings and weddings for couples who have no connection to a church, but want a meaningful ceremony with a pastor. Other than praying in Jesus' name, she tailors the ceremony to the wishes of the couple. Among other things, she's done a wedding in a bar, on the top of a building for a ballerina and a stuntman, and a Hawaiian themed wedding on the top of a hill. The last one she did was a Jewish/Christian wedding presided over by her and a rabbi.

I think what she does is great, so I'm interested in hearing why you think there's something wrong with helping people mark important occasions in their lives with a ceremony that is meaningful to them. It feels like I'm missing something about where you're coming from.

[Ben Edson]

My feeling is that this is too far because it sets no boundaries. It's to personally constructed and therefore has none of the external validating factors. Part of the reason that i got married within my tradition was because it connects me to the tradition - not in a traditionalist way...I therefore have no problem with a pagan doing a pagan wedding for people, a christian doing a wedding for people etc.

My take on this is that is takes the value away from all faiths by saying that they can all be personally constructed. It removes the tradition and by doing so looses something of the wisdom of the tradition along the way.

It seems to me that you friend, just by simply mentioning Jesus, frames the service as part of a tradition, and the same with the Rabbi. Most weddings are interfaith or nonfaith these days and therefore we need to find creative ways to engage with people.

[Angie]

Hi Ben
Hello! Hope you're well! How interesting that you saw my little card when you visited Cluny!
A friend and fellow Interfaith Minister directed me to your blog where I read the discussion that's going on with interest. I wonder if you'd be interested in taking a look at the website of the organisation I trained with (which includes links to other fellow Interfaith Ministers' websites) and also to the website set up for me and my partner, also an IF Minister. No problems if you're not interested, but it would give you a much clearer idea of the bigger picture and the work we feel called to do. Please let me know if you'd like me to supply the website addresses.
I look forward to hearing from you
Warm regards, Angie

[Ben Edson]

Hi Angie

You never know who's gonna drop by...so welcome! Personally I'd love to have a look at the website so please post a link.

My more conservative brothers and sisters probably won't like it, and may comment on it. I'd like to have a look because it maybe that I'm mis-understanding the inter-faith perspective and I am always open to being re-educated.

thanks for droping by.

ben

[Christy]

Hmmm...maybe the way you read the card depends on where you are coming from.(Isn't that the way it is with a lot of things?) Your take on the card just seemed at odds with your earlier post on participating in a pagan ceremony - which I thought sounded lovely, BTW.

As for my friend, praying in Jesus' name connects her to what she believes and her tradition. I'm not sure it does that for anyone else. The truth is that most of the people she does weddings for don't have much of a connection to any particular faith tradition - if they did, then they wouldn't have to get their minister from weddingpastors.com. There's no tradition to remove, really.

My faith is very "personally constructed", and grows out of a particular culture, time and set of life experiences. (I would wager yours is too.) All religion (but not God) was constructed by someone at some point - influenced by culture, gender, economics and politics - so I think it's much more honest to say "I'm just trying to find God and live my life the best I can right here, right now, and this is what I've come up with - knowing that on some level God is always Other and that I am influenced by the culture I'm in in ways I can never separate out."

The other option seems to be to buy into a religious system constructed by powerful men with a vested interest in maintaining that power with an unfortunate history of getting their own words confused with God's. I tried that, and decided I'll do my own constructing and not apologize for it.

Off to yoga class...

Peace.

[Ben Edson]

Christy, I'm hoping that Angie will drop by and tell me abit more about interfaith ministers. That way I can be more informed about what they are, but maybe I was reading interfaith as anyfaith...it maybe that an interfaith minister simply presides at a wedding/baptism etc. of people in their faith tradition and can do that with integrity.

In my ministry I walk a fine line between a personally constructed faith and a faith that is fully part of the christian tradition. I too think that this Christian tradition has failed and is to dominated by men, but i also think that i am called to bring about transformation of it. Some people, with integrity, have to walk away and at times i wish i could...

Thanks for your comments, they're stimulating my thinking! enjoy the yoga!

[cheryl]

i've been challenged to think about this by people i'm meeting in the community who have deliberately chosen not to define themselves as Christian, but who are searching for ways of celebrating life and particular turning points - of acknowledging a moment that is bigger than themselves.

i've led a few inter-faith celebrations in the last couple of years - the most memorable was a funeral I led last year. it was for a woman who wasn't a Christian, and the community who gathered to celebrate her life included christians, muslims, buddhists and atheists. To do a specifically Christian service would have have been disrespectful to the choices made by the woman - i was asked to create something that was non faith based, but faith-full.

interestingly, a catholic theologian who came to the service told me the service adhered to christian doctrine, even though there was no use of traditional Christian language. Muslims and Buddhists told me it was very congruent with their faith. my friends who are atheist said it didn't require them to cross their fingers. it seemed we found a way to craft a liturgy that let people place their own beliefs on top of it, as they needed to.

i would never want to lose the uniqueness of each faith, but i think there are times when it's really appropriate to search beyond each religion's boundaries.

[Neil]

Christy

I think you have missed the point about Christianity - its founder is a very powerful man who 'being in very nature, God, did not consider quality with God, something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross'. (1 Philippians 2: 6-8)

Jesus did however clearly claim to be God. Ultimately, the only real question that remains is 'is it true?' I don't mean 'true' in the sense that what is true for you is fine - but not necessarily true for me!(this would mean Naziism is true to a Nazi, it would mean that I can make up MY own religion and regardless of how crazy it becomes it is true; it would mean if I then changed my made up religion to another mad up one that completely contradicted my first religion - then that was now true!) I mean TRUE in the sense that there is no need for anyone to look elsewhere, true in the sense that syncretism is not required. I mean eternally true, so that I don't have to jump off one merry-go-round of belief system onto another.

Christy, I hope it doesn't offend you, or patronise you, but you need to know that I am praying for you!

God bless

Neil

[Neil]

Nb the word 'quality' above should obviously read 'equality'

[Angie]

Hi Ben

Thanks for your welcome and response.

You’ll find the Interfaith Seminary at TheInterfaithSeminary.com and me (and my partner) at AlternativeCeremony.org

I realise that you and your readers may not agree with what we offer, that you may still think it’s going too far, but by looking at the websites you will at least have more of a picture. And, who knows? perhaps one day you and your readers may have the opportunity to experience a ceremony by one of my peers, or by me, and then really get the ‘proof of the pudding’!?

This posting comes to you in the spirit of brotherhood / sisterhood. Here’s to a healthy dialogue in the direction of there being more peace, tolerance, goodwill and understanding in the world.

Blessings to you, your family and your readers, all the best, Angie

[Christy]

Ben -

Good luck on that whole transforming Christianity thing. :-) Clearly, you are more of an optimist than I am.

(And Neil - I really don't think that everyone should make up their own religion composed of whatever floats their boat. I live in Los Angeles, home of Scientology, which I think we can all agree was not a good idea.)

I actually still consider myself a Christian - even though not all Christians would claim me. Out of spiritual self-preservation, I had to start over again, faith-wise, and I've ended up with a mix of Catholic mysticism and Quakerism with a deep appreciation for yoga, Buddhist mindfulness and Jungian psychology. (which isn't a religion, but whatever)And I probably have more vestiges of my Baptist and fundamentalist roots than I think...

I guess I just no longer feel the need to defend Christianity the Religion. I can't entirely walk away from it, but I can't entirely stay within it, either, so I sort of wander around on the edges.

Neil -
Well, from our discussion in the comments section of my blog, you already know that I am entirely familiar with the tenets of Christianity. Also, at one point, I had those verses in Phillipians memorized.

I suppose you and I could debate the definition of truth in the comments section of Ben's blog, but I don't think we would get anywhere, and it seems unfair to hijack Ben's blog in that way, as he seems like a very nice man.

There are a number of people praying for my soul, and you are welcome to join them. Just know that the Divine does not always answer those prayers in precisely the way that you expect.